When Did Bank Cards Become Status Symbols?

This week on Banking Without Borders, Jan and Jonny are asking when bank cards stopped being financial tools and started becoming status symbols. 

From metal cards and paid-for “premium” designs to the new Revolut Audi F1 card, this episode looks at why banks and fintechs are increasingly selling image, identity, and exclusivity — not just useful features.

• Why are people paying for debit cards that offer no meaningful financial benefit?
• When did banking become part utility, part luxury branding exercise?
• Are premium cards actually worth it, or are they just clever status products?
• And what does this say about the direction fintech is heading in?

A fun one, but also a genuinely interesting conversation about branding, consumer psychology, and the strange ways money and status now overlap.

Connect with us (via LinkedIn)

Jan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jan-watermann/

Jonny: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jonny-pease

Got a question or topic you want us to cover? Drop us a message at jonny@technicallymoney.com

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:06:17
Unknown
Okay, welcome back to another episode of Banking Without Borders. So last weekend, in the name of YouTube, I spent 110 pounds on this

00:00:06:22 - 00:00:07:19
Unknown
debit card.

00:00:07:19 - 00:00:13:10
Unknown
Okay. And if you're listening, right now I'm holding the new titanium plated Revolut Audi F1 debit card,

00:00:13:10 - 00:00:18:17
Unknown
and I should probably mention that only the front is plated in titanium because the back is plastic.

00:00:18:19 - 00:00:25:11
Unknown
And yes, there's all my details, but this card is frozen and I don't plan on using it, which makes the whole purchase even more ridiculous.

00:00:25:13 - 00:00:29:13
Unknown
So the card weighs 19g, right? Which means for 110 pounds,

00:00:29:13 - 00:00:35:07
Unknown
I've effectively purchased the most overpriced rectangle of my entire adult life.

00:00:35:11 - 00:00:40:05
Unknown
if you actually think about the material cost of this card, right, the numbers are pretty silly.

00:00:40:05 - 00:00:42:11
Unknown
The titanium is probably worth pennies, and the

00:00:42:11 - 00:00:43:17
Unknown
plastic is even less.

00:00:43:19 - 00:00:51:16
Unknown
I mean, I paid all that money. For what? Because it certainly wasn't for titanium. It was for the idea of titanium.

00:00:51:16 - 00:00:57:03
Unknown
And in pure financial terms, I have been shafted by a debit card.

00:00:57:04 - 00:00:58:20
Unknown
that is also what makes this interesting,

00:00:58:20 - 00:01:00:07
Unknown
Because this isn't about cost.

00:01:00:07 - 00:01:03:23
Unknown
It's about the fact the bank cards are starting to behave like luxury goods.

00:01:04:00 - 00:01:06:05
Unknown
that's weird, right? Because banks used to compete

00:01:06:05 - 00:01:08:00
Unknown
on rates, rewards and service.

00:01:08:01 - 00:01:10:08
Unknown
now apparently they compete on vibes.

00:01:10:08 - 00:01:15:09
Unknown
So yeah. When did banking stop being about utility and start becoming about status

00:01:15:10 - 00:01:16:21
Unknown
I think we have to start with Revolut,

00:01:16:21 - 00:01:20:10
Unknown
because ultra really feels like one of the clearest examples of this,

00:01:20:10 - 00:01:25:07
Unknown
almost like taking the American Express playbook from the past and pushing it even harder.

00:01:25:10 - 00:01:34:12
Unknown
Johnny, before we look at revolute, I'd like to make a point. Yeah. I think there's a fundamental difference between cards that actually offer a cocktail, a bank account, and offer a real financial benefits,

00:01:34:14 - 00:01:37:17
Unknown
and some that are. Yeah, purely, purely status or cosmetic driven.

00:01:37:19 - 00:01:56:10
Unknown
if you're eyeing, revenue neutral, for example, because you can make use of these, these subscriptions that it provides, or the the elevated rate of, of ref points that you can, you can earn, then it makes sense, you know, if you if you're really utilizing these benefits and you, you come out, with a plus at the end of each month, great.

00:01:56:12 - 00:02:07:19
Unknown
Then that has nothing to do with status. But for many people, I have a I have a feeling that, these cards are, you know, more, more fashionable products. Right? They're accessories. And it's enough to have a look at Instagram, for example.

00:02:07:21 - 00:02:11:06
Unknown
you'll see people showing the Amex cards into the camera. Right.

00:02:11:06 - 00:02:12:00
Unknown
And

00:02:12:03 - 00:02:15:02
Unknown
trying to associate themselves with with wealth.

00:02:15:04 - 00:02:22:08
Unknown
Right. Because these, these cards are typically a little harder to get. Right. You got to pay a few hundred hundred pounds per for you in order to get them.

00:02:22:10 - 00:02:34:02
Unknown
people try to use them in order to seem wealthier than they actually are. Not saying that's the case for everyone, but I think there's, there's a majority of people that look at these cards that way.

00:02:34:04 - 00:02:42:03
Unknown
Yeah, I think so. I think there is a case for that. I mean, I'm familiar with a couple of people that I know that have Amex Platinum because they travel, so they utilize it for Lounge Pass.

00:02:42:03 - 00:02:50:16
Unknown
the unlimited lounge passes essentially that you get. And that's a good benefit. But at the same time, like you could get that through lounge Kill Dragon Pass for a lot less than the cost.

00:02:50:16 - 00:03:02:16
Unknown
So it makes me think that they are probably utilizing them as a, as a means of yes, the utility, the lounge pass, but also possibly is like a yeah, it's going to elevate their status somewhat in society.

00:03:02:18 - 00:03:15:07
Unknown
know, I don't know if that's what they're thinking, but that's, you know, what? You you might think looking as an outsider, or they just simply haven't done the math because like Yan said, like in some cases, these cards can fundamentally be useful.

00:03:15:09 - 00:03:22:04
Unknown
If, you know, if you're using these subscriptions, the ultra has, for example, and then you get ultra, that could be a game changer in terms of how much money you could save.

00:03:22:04 - 00:03:32:09
Unknown
And I think if you're looking at it like that, then fine. Yan. But I think if people are looking to these cards as a means of elevating their like socioeconomic status in society, making them look wealthier or or.

00:03:32:09 - 00:03:35:04
Unknown
Phil, I think in some cases may I think some people feel better

00:03:35:06 - 00:03:38:02
Unknown
having these cards, don't they? It's like I've made it,

00:03:38:04 - 00:03:51:02
Unknown
you know, and good for you. But ultimately you're spending five, 600 pounds, whatever. Platinum is a month. Month. Sorry, a year for that feeling. Which is actually remarkably sad. I would say.

00:03:51:04 - 00:03:58:02
Unknown
the same for Revolut Ultra and the same for a titanium plated card, because I think a lot of people just want to be able to go.

00:03:58:02 - 00:04:05:05
Unknown
Not a lot. I shouldn't say a lot, but I think there are a select few people that want to go and pay for something in a restaurant or at a shop.

00:04:05:07 - 00:04:17:20
Unknown
I mean, who even pays with physical cards today anyway? I think the only people that do that are maybe those without a smartphone or people that literally want to do this, they want to tap or they want to throw it down on the table so it makes that noise.

00:04:17:20 - 00:04:18:20
Unknown
I'm not sure if you pick that up,

00:04:18:20 - 00:04:25:20
Unknown
and that noise is an indicator of status. You know, this sound?

00:04:25:22 - 00:04:47:06
Unknown
And that is. Yeah, that is sad. That is sad. I mean, how did we get here? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we could throw it back to the original metal card and, you know, which was the the original metal card.

00:04:47:08 - 00:05:11:00
Unknown
Yes. In 1999. And that. I don't know, mate. That feels like if status is a real thing, not something that I believe in, but if it really is a thing to have status, status, whatever the Centurion card feels like, it, right? Because that requires a serious degree of spending, which would arguably be, as you know, I mean, meaning you're earning a lot, right?

00:05:11:05 - 00:05:22:14
Unknown
platinum or ultra, these things really just require you to be able to afford like £50, £60 a month. Some people can can do that even if they don't earn enough to really justify it.

00:05:22:19 - 00:05:41:21
Unknown
the fascinating thing is, if you you, you type in Amex on Instagram, you know, there's there's some content about the Amex Centurion, but you'll be seeing more content about the Amex Platinum one, typically by by influencers that show these in the camera. Trying to obviously make people aware of the program American Express has in order to get some permission out of it.

00:05:41:23 - 00:06:01:16
Unknown
But also in order to seem wealthy, you know, typically people that some, some might have moved to the Middle East, live in fancy buildings. So, so trading courses. We all know these people, right? But also some people that are just interested in trying to to appear wealthy within the existing, circle of friends.

00:06:01:19 - 00:06:03:16
Unknown
I think that's really fascinating because

00:06:03:21 - 00:06:07:11
Unknown
we see similar behaviors in other other, industries.

00:06:07:14 - 00:06:19:04
Unknown
If you look at fashion, for example, who typically goes ahead and buys Louis Vuitton products, who waits, two hours in front of a store, potentially in order to, to be let in and purchase a product?

00:06:19:05 - 00:06:21:02
Unknown
not going to say rich people do not do this, but

00:06:21:02 - 00:06:26:14
Unknown
my feeling is that the majority of people who purchase these products are not not not wealthy, but they're they're

00:06:26:16 - 00:06:36:00
Unknown
Those people could just really like the design, the materials, the romance of the brand, because there is a lot of prestige and

00:06:36:02 - 00:06:45:20
Unknown
somewhat romance attached to Louis Vuitton. Could you not argue that that somewhat could be about that. I mean other people that seek out Louis Vuitton handbags, are you saying those are people that

00:06:45:20 - 00:06:51:19
Unknown
might not necessarily be able to afford it, but they just want to look wealthy by having the handbag on their shoulder?

00:06:51:22 - 00:06:53:10
Unknown
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying,

00:06:53:12 - 00:07:06:21
Unknown
you say it out loud, you can. Yeah, I see it. I see, I can see, yeah, I can see how it could, correlate with these cards and with these status accounts. So having like, the platinum card would be like the equivalent of having a Louis Vuitton handbag.

00:07:06:23 - 00:07:11:17
Unknown
There's no rational reason to produce, a bank card

00:07:11:17 - 00:07:13:21
Unknown
out of metal rather than

00:07:13:23 - 00:07:17:06
Unknown
the way this thing appears to to its users,

00:07:17:08 - 00:07:17:16
Unknown
No.

00:07:17:18 - 00:07:20:05
Unknown
heavier. You know, it might be a little thicker, but there's no, you

00:07:20:07 - 00:07:28:01
Unknown
Harder to lose. It's harder to lose.

00:07:28:03 - 00:07:38:08
Unknown
Because you'd hear it if it fell out of your pocket. And you'd hear it bang on the floor and you go oh I dropped my metal card. Whereas plastic, you just can't hear

00:07:38:10 - 00:07:38:18
Unknown
a.

00:07:38:23 - 00:07:45:02
Unknown
you live in a very quiet place, potentially. But, Yeah. Wherever I am, would not hear my card falling out of my wallet. If

00:07:45:05 - 00:07:55:13
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. Let's be real. There's no utility demand for this whatsoever. There is no real right logical reason to get it.

00:07:55:15 - 00:07:56:13
Unknown
Except for status.

00:07:56:16 - 00:08:05:05
Unknown
why does Revolut Ultra at least appear to have like the idea of those that you choose to have? Ultra are looking to appear like they have some level of status.

00:08:05:10 - 00:08:07:00
Unknown
get it with the Amex Centurion?

00:08:07:00 - 00:08:16:20
Unknown
I also somewhat get it with platinum, but is is that same perception creeping into Revolut Ultra as well? Is Revolut Ultra perceived to be like higher status?

00:08:16:22 - 00:08:30:09
Unknown
But actually trying to market it that way. Have a look at the revolute product pages. You know, you see these cards from from all kinds of angles, right? They're being they're being shown so that they're reflections on the metal. You see the engraving?

00:08:30:13 - 00:08:31:10
Unknown
Yeah.

00:08:31:12 - 00:08:38:09
Unknown
like art. They look like art. And Revolut doesn't, doesn't it's an excellent job marketing these cards.

00:08:38:11 - 00:09:07:01
Unknown
So they're truly trying to, to, to have people think of these as status symbols because it's, it's, it's where the money is. Let's be 100% honest, right? I mean, there's if you look look at fashion, right. Who, who's making the most, most profit per, per handpick. I mean, I'm sure it's not, not H&M, but it's rather, Louis Vuitton that sell handbags for thousands of dollars, or pounds, instead of maybe 15 to £20.

00:09:07:03 - 00:09:15:03
Unknown
Yeah. No you're absolutely right. What is it called. LLM, VH Moet Hennessy or something. Is the company behind Louis Vuitton. Huge organization hugely successful.

00:09:15:03 - 00:09:26:08
Unknown
how did we get here then. Why are banks white? Why is Revolution choosing to market ultra in this way. You said obviously as a means of generating revenue I get that, but is it is there more to it than this?

00:09:26:08 - 00:09:56:08
Unknown
Because, you know, is it because, okay, sex sells, whereas, you know, having a boring conversation with someone isn't going to be as enticing or as compelling to watch. Whereas, yeah, people are more drawn to romance and so is it like trying to romanticize the debit card or the current account, or the bank account? Because interest rates, better interest rates or, I don't know, cash back just isn't very sexy.

00:09:56:08 - 00:10:00:06
Unknown
A percent better than exchange rates. That's what I believe personally. And,

00:10:00:08 - 00:10:01:14
Unknown
Appeal.

00:10:01:16 - 00:10:05:20
Unknown
Right. That they're trying to sell these cards instead of symbols for that exact reason.

00:10:05:21 - 00:10:25:11
Unknown
But to people really believe that if you're listening to this right now, watching this, do you really believe that? Does anyone actually believe that having Revolut Ultra will increase their status in society? I mean, it just seems like no one would fall for that. To me. At least I do. Look, I know I'm sat here with this card.

00:10:25:11 - 00:10:34:02
Unknown
I know I got the card, I did get the card, but you know this, there's a reason I got that. I got that because I wanted to talk about it. I wanted to make a video about it.

00:10:34:02 - 00:10:35:23
Unknown
is anyone really getting it just to

00:10:35:23 - 00:10:39:14
Unknown
feel like they're part of a club of special people?

00:10:39:16 - 00:10:46:07
Unknown
within our existing audience, because I believe those are people that are interested in finance. Those are, yeah, probably rational people.

00:10:46:09 - 00:10:47:01
Unknown
People that

00:10:47:03 - 00:10:47:17
Unknown
Rational?

00:10:47:17 - 00:10:49:19
Unknown
themselves before making a financial decision.

00:10:49:21 - 00:10:50:03
Unknown
Yeah.

00:10:50:03 - 00:10:52:17
Unknown
But many people in society are not like that.

00:10:52:20 - 00:10:53:11
Unknown
hope so,

00:10:53:11 - 00:11:07:00
Unknown
But if this is true, then, you know, people are purchasing a rectangular piece or plated piece of metal to help massage or elevate themselves, and that is terrifying,

00:11:07:03 - 00:11:12:03
Unknown
Are you familiar with the Fire Festival yarn?

00:11:12:05 - 00:11:13:17
Unknown
Quite an interesting anecdote.

00:11:13:17 - 00:11:45:00
Unknown
Is that the. Yeah. The founder of Fire Festival, Billy McFarland, he was actually a bit of a bit of a bit ahead of the game with this idea of having like, you know, like a private select, exclusive card or club. He founded something for free festival called Magnus's, I believe it was called and that had a metal card and it enabled like discounts access, like a concierge service.

00:11:45:02 - 00:11:47:18
Unknown
But that was back in 2014, and it never really took off.

00:11:47:18 - 00:11:54:15
Unknown
at least his interpretation of it didn't take off for his attempt. But we have seen obviously the metal cards have elevated to some degree,

00:11:54:20 - 00:11:58:20
Unknown
curious to get people's thoughts on this, but they feel a bit more like a meme now.

00:11:58:20 - 00:12:07:06
Unknown
Yarn, like a bit of a joke. Like have metal cards not become a bit more of a joke today and like these sort of status symbol accounts,

00:12:07:11 - 00:12:15:06
Unknown
because it was it was started like the idea of it was really pioneered by Billy McFarland. He's a bit of a joke, really. He's a bit he's he's a bit of a scammer.

00:12:15:06 - 00:12:17:09
Unknown
Like, he's a bit of a weed. Say gas man.

00:12:17:11 - 00:12:22:10
Unknown
now they feel like a bit of a joke. Obviously they're not a joke to Revolut or N26 or,

00:12:22:10 - 00:12:36:03
Unknown
I don't know who else has trade Republic have a metal card. Right, buddy? Like that. They're not a joke to these providers, obviously, but generally speaking, right. People are watching this now, probably thinking, you're listening to this.

00:12:36:05 - 00:12:40:10
Unknown
I haven't used a physical card in ages. Like who's even using physical cards now, mate?

00:12:40:10 - 00:13:00:16
Unknown
I don't know anyone listening to this. Like, when do you use a physical card today? So the whole thing is kind of a bit of a joke, like who really bought the Revolut Aldi F1 titanium like card? Because you know, to to use to tap exactly.

00:13:00:18 - 00:13:15:17
Unknown
they they exist because people buy them. So there must be people in this world that, that go ahead and purchase these cards and, if there's no benefits tied to them, like the the revolute or one card that you just mentioned you went ahead and purchased last week.

00:13:15:19 - 00:13:26:00
Unknown
Then it is about status. I mean, there's no other reason why you would do that unless you're a huge F1 fan and, willing to drop that money. But then, you know, there are also gold plated cards

00:13:26:02 - 00:13:42:07
Unknown
Yeah. They're all, yeah, I've got one. Got one of them as well. It looks quite nice. But you know what? I was always too embarrassed to use it for, for a little while. I think I had it for a bit, but I was always a bit embarrassed by it. Again, I bought this because I wanted to make a video about it.

00:13:42:07 - 00:13:55:08
Unknown
it to me it feels like a bit of a meme at this point, but it does exist and it and it's certainly something the Revolut feel like they really want to push harder at. I mean, they're not the only fintech we mentioned in 26 and 26. Metal is all about making a statement,

00:13:55:08 - 00:13:56:18
Unknown
that's all over the website.

00:13:56:18 - 00:13:59:08
Unknown
Make a statement and 26 metal.

00:13:59:08 - 00:14:06:14
Unknown
For them it's all about a premium identity as a means of I guess, trying to differentiate the account, trying to find a like we talked about a way to sell it.

00:14:06:14 - 00:14:18:00
Unknown
I'm curious whether legacy banks are interested in this. I know Amex is a legacy company that pioneered the idea of prestige, but do you think the likes of HSBC, Barclays, I don't know, Bank of America?

00:14:18:00 - 00:14:21:23
Unknown
They might already have metal cards. I'm not sure if the World Elite Mastercard is metal,

00:14:22:01 - 00:14:28:15
Unknown
I wonder if we'll see. Yeah, in a bit more of a push into like bundled prestige accounts by legacy.

00:14:28:15 - 00:14:42:00
Unknown
With legacy banks, I mean, it'll likely not happen anytime soon. Does those guys are always late to the party. You've seen it with, low exchange rates. You've seen it with, online banking in many, many other areas. So if if there's money in this, you know, this

00:14:42:01 - 00:15:07:02
Unknown
Is there is there money in this? Like maybe legacy is a really good indicator of that. Yeah. And you know, if legacy adopt something there is money in it. If they don't you know, does do do do our parents do the generation that's came before us care because they typically a legacy users. Do you think they care for stuff like this as well.

00:15:07:04 - 00:15:23:22
Unknown
question, Johnny. That's a good question. I guess time will tell. You know, one thing you can be sure about is that, if this turns out to be successful, if this turns out to be a, a way to earn money, that would take at least ten years for legacy banks to really pick up the trend, and develop their products, in a similar direction.

00:15:24:00 - 00:15:31:21
Unknown
That just because these entities are so big, they make decisions insanely slow. Everything takes forever. So,

00:15:31:22 - 00:15:58:20
Unknown
I can imagine I can imagine a bundled account right buddy from the likes of HSBC or Barclays beyond, like the status accounts, for example, like a bundled ultra esque account and like a high, high tier. Like a high tier, like a sorry, but like a high monthly fee, which might have like an accompanying metal card or platinum or titanium card, because ultimately I think that they don't have to stop these cards anyway.

00:15:58:20 - 00:16:10:19
Unknown
They're probably made to order so they don't cost the banks anything until you pay some money for the account. So there's a lot there's low risk attached to that. I can think I can see that, but I can see that happening.

00:16:10:22 - 00:16:26:06
Unknown
I think in the meantime, it's important to say, basically recommend to everyone listening to this that, we definitely advise against looking at these these, these cards as fashionable symbols.

00:16:26:08 - 00:16:30:21
Unknown
They help you pay. Typically don't even have to take them out.

00:16:30:22 - 00:16:51:02
Unknown
I mean, I know it says it says world elite on here, you know? Can you see this? I hope so, it says World Elite on this card and this Revolut metal card. Does that make me somewhat special? No it doesn't. Not at all. I barely take it out of my wallet. I mean, that's actually, that's the one I never even carry with me, because the one I carry with me, broke apart.

00:16:51:04 - 00:16:53:00
Unknown
I think I shown it into the camera before,

00:16:53:02 - 00:16:56:04
Unknown
but, yeah, it doesn't make me better than any

00:16:56:06 - 00:17:11:20
Unknown
Yeah. It's funny because even Monzo. Monzo they had Monzo premium that had a metal card didn't they. But they discontinued that. So they swiftly jumped out of that, out of that swimming pool. They have a premium account called Max

00:17:11:22 - 00:17:23:03
Unknown
that tells you something as well. Like adoption was probably low. But I think that's an indicator of whether or not this is actually something that people are truly interested in.

00:17:23:05 - 00:17:54:14
Unknown
But what Yann saying holds heaviest. It's like, don't be drawn to the I think everyone like Yana also said everyone. Most people listening to this are probably very rational. So you don't need me to tell you. Don't be drawn to this for this idea of status. But do look at the benefits that it will enable. And you know, cross-check those with the way you live your life and the things that you do, and see if there's like a way to possibly save money as a result of these bundled metal special unique accounts that are available.

00:17:54:14 - 00:17:57:04
Unknown
And honestly, my, my take on this card

00:17:57:07 - 00:18:04:03
Unknown
it is not worth it. It's just simple.

00:18:04:04 - 00:18:08:05
Unknown
Information.

00:18:08:07 - 00:18:12:00
Unknown
fascinating that people actually go ahead and make something like that.

00:18:12:02 - 00:18:24:04
Unknown
I've got I've got so many. Know I've got so many metal cards now from Revolut that I could probably melt them down and sell them. I could probably melt them down

00:18:24:06 - 00:18:28:12
Unknown
I'm curious if people listening to this or people watching this are interested in these premium types of cards.

00:18:28:12 - 00:18:46:09
Unknown
I mean, are you interested? If you are, let me know. Maybe it's because of the way it looks. That's fine. Don't be afraid if that's how you feel, I'd love to hear from you. Or even if you're. Yeah. No judgment. No judgment. You know, maybe maybe there's someone out there that thinks it does elevate their status.

00:18:46:11 - 00:18:58:14
Unknown
I would love to hear from those people. But also more about the practical benefits as well. I think those are important. They do exist. The practical benefits of the debit card. I'm not so sure.

00:18:58:19 - 00:19:01:09
Unknown
I guess maybe if you have a Coke problem.

00:19:01:11 - 00:19:13:18
Unknown
as I said in the beginning, Johnny, some accounts, some cards provide extra benefits, some don't. You know, you Audi F1 car does not provide any additional benefits. The revolute ultra account does. So there's a distinction to be made here.

00:19:13:19 - 00:19:28:20
Unknown
if it makes sense from a financial perspective, you know, when I go for the premium account and if the card is made out of out of brass, out of titanium, out of platinum or whatever, element of the of the element table there is, you know, so be it.

00:19:28:20 - 00:19:32:21
Unknown
But don't go ahead and purchase a car just because it looks fancy. Do not.

00:19:32:21 - 00:19:40:16
Unknown
I didn't pay much attention during chemistry class. And my my knowledge of the periodic table was not that good. But since becoming a,

00:19:40:16 - 00:19:49:04
Unknown
since getting a keen interest in finance, my. Yeah, knowledge of the periodic table has grown. I'm familiar with more elements these days as a result of these cards.

00:19:49:04 - 00:19:53:14
Unknown
These limited edition cards. I mean, are they genuinely premium? Does anyone actually think they are premium?

00:19:53:14 - 00:19:54:12
Unknown
We certainly look premium.

00:19:54:17 - 00:19:55:12
Unknown
Okay, everybody.

00:19:55:12 - 00:19:58:03
Unknown
That's it this week. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. And,

00:19:58:03 - 00:20:05:01
Unknown
if you are watching on YouTube, please do give us a like. And, if you're listening, do consider writing us, whether it's on Apple or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:20:05:01 - 00:20:12:06
Unknown
Please do leave the, the the show a rating that would really help us, that help the channel and help to help the podcast get in front of more people.

00:20:12:11 - 00:20:33:22
Unknown
everyone for listening. It's been a pleasure. Let me just do this. It doesn't work. Forget

00:20:34:00 - 00:20:35:12
Unknown
Stay rational. Bye bye.